Conversation worth noting


No matter how I look at it, it looks the same, Christ died for all men.

I have been having a conversation that I think is worth noting.  It is from my irishanglican who is a friendly antagonist of mine.  We were discussing Calvinism point of view that only a select are chosen to be saved.  I will give his address to me first then my reply.  I would like to know if you think there is more evidence for my friends position or for mine and why?

This is from the blog New Creation Person

From irishanglican,

  • Dave,

God has as He said: “For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.” (Rom. 11: 32) So God does see all men as “sinful” both Jew and Gentile, but His mercy is only shown to “all” those whom He alone has chosen for Himself (note Acts 13: 48). Only those “appointed to eternal life believed.” This is what we call in theology as Sub/Post or Infralapsarian, God chooses to save an “election of grace”, after the Fall of man. For not “all” men are going to be saved! And only those are “saved” that are chosen and “elect” by God, from both Jews and Gentiles…”there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.” (Rom. 11:5, note verse 6 also in this context & argument!)

This was my response,

  • Irishanglican,

Thank you for the reply and not a quote. It means a lot to me.

I whole heartedly agree with you that we are bound to disobedience, sinful nature if you will, so we can be shown God’s mercy. Again scripture shows us the desire of God’s heart towards us in that we can participate in His incomparable riches of His grace for His good pleasure alone.

(Eph 2:6-7 NIV) And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

So I say, amen brother.

I agree again, whole heartedly that not all men will be saved. In fact many on the narrow path will not be saved. Those who remain on the wide path are doomed already, but many on the narrow path are doomed to0. It is not good enough to be on the path, we have to enter the narrow door.

(Luke 13:24 NIV) “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

It is the blanket of grace that we don’t see eye to eye on. Is it a blanket that covers all mankind or is it only a few that it covers? Another way to ask it, is the blanket determined only by those who cover themselves or is it what it is, no matter who does or doesn’t cover themselves with His grace?

Your first verse quoted says that God has handed us all over to disobedience so that He may show mercy. This we agree on. But is it to all or only those who, through free will or not, receive it. Your Bible and mine says that He may show mercy to all.

God has done as He said: “For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.” (Rom. 11: 32)

We know that all are bound to sin no matter who we are and were and when we lived. I think we agree this is universal to all mankind. So how are we to assume that God wanting to show mercy to the same “all” in the same sentence is anything but a universal concept?

I know you know or know somebody that knows Greek. Is the word “all” as in disobedience the same Greek word for ‘all” as in God showing us mercy? Or is the better translation from the Greek to be the word elect, chosen, remnant?

This is why I advocate what is in plain language. All means “all” which does not contradict God reconciling the world (all) to Himself.

(Col 1:19-20 NIV) For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

The scripture you used is consistent with another verse that speaks of the universality of sin through one man Adam. It also speaks of the justification to “all men” through the new Adam who is Christ. Two universalities in one concept and one sentence. Or is something hidden in the Greek?

(Rom 5:18 NIV) Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

We have the confirmation that God justifies all men and brings life to all men again when scripture says, in plain language, that God through Christ reconciled the world to Himself, not counting men’s sins against them.

(2 Cor 5:19 NIV) that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

This is why I believe Christ is the savior of the world, that He died for the sins of the world, that He took upon Himself the sins of the entire world.

To me the question isn’t the blanket of His grace for plain language says it is for all men. What needs to be understood is God’s election.

What do you think, is there an example we have in scripture of God’s election?

(Rom 9:4-5 NIV) the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

As an honest question to you, what example do they serve to us in election, since we are grafted into them and not they into us?

Thanks for the great conversation.

glasseyedave

So what do you think?  Did Jesus die for the sins of all men or only a few?  No matter how I look at it I see that He died for all mankind.

2 thoughts on “Conversation worth noting

  1. I find the conversation between the two of you..interesting.

    If we are to say Grace through Christ is a blanket covering for all sin…as many believe….one might have to assume the bloody coats of skins in which Adam/Eve were ‘covered’…..coats representing the shedding of Christ’s redemptive blood to cover sins that are ‘past’…were sufficient to redeem Cain after he murdered Abel…and sufficient to redeem Judas after Christ pronounced him ‘lost.’ And scripture clearly says Cain was not redeemed. Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

    Adam, through the guidance of God, became the perfect picture of HOW all were ‘concluded’ in sin. 1ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression (the following does not contradict the previous verse…it speakes to Adam having been ‘concluded’ …having willingly placed himself in transgression so that ALL man/male and female was lost and in need of redemption. In this ‘redemption’..God would reveal His mercy to man / Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. )

    Had Adam not willingly and KNOWINGLY became sin for his bride…she would have been forever lost to her husband and her Father. God puts a HEAVY, HEAVY weight on the concept of ‘the two shall become ONE flesh.’ Adam and Eve were ONE flesh. That would not be UNDONE. As Adam gave himself to death to redeem Eve, he demonstrated the REALITY of Christ becoming sin for His bride. That REDEMPTIVE act was and is perfect. But the key word is BRIDE…VIRGIN…RIGHTEOUS…REDEEMED. Though it is God’s WILL that none ‘perish’….many will reject God’s gift of Grace and will ‘perish’ within the second death. In this TRUTH is found the true meaning of ‘ELECTION’…is found those who RECEIVE the gift of Grace…the ‘elect’…the Bride…the Body of Christ…the Temples of God…and so forth. But the reality of ‘ELECTION’ does not contradict the desire of God for ALL to ‘repent’. The ‘blinded’ remnant of Israel… COULD NOT come by the ‘election of grace’……so they might accomplish HIS PURPOSE….the death of the incarnate Son of God. It was this ‘remnant’ who COULD NOT recognize John the Baptist as Elias…the forerunner of Messiah. It was this ‘remnant’ who cried ‘give us Barabas.’ AND IT WILL NOT BE HELD TO THEIR CHARGE!!! That is why Christ prayed ‘Father forgive them. They know not what they do.’ SIMPLE!! They ARE NOT accountable for the death of Christ. GOD IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE DEATH OF CHRIST. IT WAS HIS PERFECT PURPOSE AND PLAN…to REDEEM the descendants of Adam/Eve out of the SEPARATION/DEATH which happened in Eden.

    Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    THIS BLINDED AND DEAFENED ‘REMNANT’ IS ‘ELECT’ OF GOD. God who is all knowing…looked into the future and saw those who would repent…those who would ‘receive’ the Gospel of the Kingdom spoken of in Matthew 24. This gospel is preached in Revelations ‘as a witness to all nations’ …namely the nation of Israel whose rulers remain ‘blind and deaf’ and CANNOT hear the gospel…’to this day.’ But their opportunity to choose Grace comes in Revelations 11th chapter….just as Moses and Elijah (Elias) have resurrected and are ascending upward….just after the last gentile who will ‘receive’…has done so….just as the ‘fulness’ of the gentiles is complete.’ The ‘remnant’ is seen responding to the Gospel of the Kingdom which they have been encountering for three and a half years from the two witnesses.

    Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………. and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. !!!!!!

    Now..ELECTION is COMPLETE. FINISHED!!

    The conversation you two are having is ‘deep’ and spans the Bible from Genesis through Revelations. Both of you are right. ‘Election’ is reality. Also, Christ died for all men.

    Carolyn

  2. WOOPS! Left out a very significant scripture relating to ‘election’. Election and predestination are closely related within the discussion of Grace. God is just. He does not ‘save’ one and ‘reject’ another….unjustly! And He is a just God. ‘Predestination’ is a direct result of God’s ‘foreknowledge.’ God sees the end of us before we exist.

    Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Since God is ‘no respector of persons’ we must conclude everything is tied to His ‘foreknowledge’ of the condition of each man’s heart. Apart from this truth…’Jacob have I love. Esau have I hated’…would be grossly misinterpreted.
    The foreknowledge of God is the very HEART of PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION.

    Carolyn

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