Why would God grieve if He knew man would sin?

I have been observing a conversation going back and forth between two individuals on another site.  One is advocating God foreknew that man would sin and the other that God did not.  The one who says God did not, contends that God is one who discovers and that His knowledge is not perfect.  He states, that God in His discovery of man’s utter wickedness was grieved that He ever made man, as stated in the book of Genesis.

Is this a biblical view of God?  Does this idea of God being so grieved that He made man, show God is not in the know?  Is God learning and discovering about us, in what we will do in our free will?

I am one who whole heartedly believes scripture teaches free will.  Anyone who reads my posts knows this.  But does free will mean God is discovering us and then reacting emotionally towards us as things are revealed to Him about us?

I responded to this person with the following:

I will tell you of a little tale.

I went and bought three little piglets.  I brought them home and gave them the names of Ham, Bacon and Pork Chop.  We loved those little pigs.  We cared for them, treated them kindly with fresh bedding, water and food.  They grew under our care.  We grew fond of them running up to the fence to receive treats from our hands.  We petted their snouts and called them all by name.  We delighted in our pigs.

But nothing would change in my heart the purpose I had for the pigs from even before I brought them home.  They were raised for the day of slaughter.  The names we gave those pigs did not make that day any easier.  We loved those pigs that were Ham, Bacon and Pork Chop. 

With grief in heart we did what we intended to do with those pigs.  With sadness we would visit an empty pig pen.  We would remorse the slop bucket now went to the chickens.  But when the day came we took our fresh bacon out of the frying pan, we were glad.  We did what we set out to do from the beginning, to raise pigs and eat them.

Now I am but a mere man that can have a purpose and foreknow in my little limited way the destiny of those pigs in my insignificant will.  But they were in my charge, they were my possession and I foreknew what was going to happen to them.  But it still grieved me when they were gone.  That is until they were what we intended them to be from the start.

Is God not greater than us?  Can He not have plans to make man for the purpose of showing us through all the ages the incomparable riches of His grace towards us in Christ Jesus?  Can it not be said that Jesus bore the shame of the cross for the joy set before Him?  The joy of His grace so lavishly shed upon us in His kingdom.  Is God not allowed to grieve over sin in man?  Is He not allowed to then rejoice in His joy when we become what He wants us to be in Christ? 

If I am allowed to have grief in my own little drama, until the purpose of my grief brings me the joy for which I set out in the first place, can not God?  Can not God grieve as more is at stake then just pigs?  Can He not feel pain as the objects of His affection reject Him and turn from Him to do utterly evil all the time?  Can He not experience this as He works in man the mystery of His gospel, even Christ Jesus?  More is at stake then a plate full of meat.  He has every right to grieve as much as He wants until that which He set out to do in the first place is complete.

His emotions have nothing to do with Him not knowing that man would be so sinful that He would wipe all but eight people off the face of the earth.  His emotions come as He interacts with the objects of His affection in the physical time and space we dwell in, not Him.  Why are you so eager to take away from God?

God is emotional.  Is it His grace and kindness you are under or His wrath?  Do you bring Him delight in believing what He says in His word or do you provoke Him to anger by your obstinacies in telling Him how He is?  By the way, you base your life off this as well you know.

Your education I can not hold a candle to.  You are so knowledgeable and I am but a simpleton.  But I ask you to become a fool like me and simply believe God at His word.  Be childlike in your understanding as you walk out your faith, not your knowledge, like a man of God.  Don’t you desire to be like Samuel?  Do you not want to be someone God will say, “You are highly favored?”  Don’t you want to have the faith of Abraham, so God will call you friend?  Doesn’t your heart burn to be like David who was a man after God’s own heart?  How are you a man after God’s own heart?

Is God in the know about salvation?

A question has been raised on another blog that I find an interesting question.  But more interesting is the answers and dialogue put forth.  Simply because I see a question that many people ask, but their answers are so different than what I see in scripture.

So I will give my response to the question, “If God is Omniscient, Why Did He Create the World Knowing it Would Fall into Sin?”  Please go and compare answers to this question and make up your own mind which is more scriptural.

I see more than one question being asked here.

One question is, did God know that man would fall into sin before He created him?

The second question is, if he knew that man was going to sin, why did he make him anyway?

Anyhow this is how I see this conversation.

Well did God know that man would fall into sin before He created them?  We know that He did, not because of an orthodox position as the source of our confidence, rather it is because it is part of our gospel.

Our gospel does not teach that Christ died around 33 AD.  Our gospel teaches us that Christ died before the foundation of the world.

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[1]

Paul teaches us that we had the hope of salvation promised to mankind before mankind was ever created.

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness–a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,[2]

Not only do we have a promise of salvation before time began, even our reward was prepared for us who believe, even before man was created

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.[3]

Even names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.  Names of people who do not exist.  Sounds kind of detailed for God if He is not omniscient.

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.[4]

So it is true when scripture says:

For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.”[5]

Furthermore it is true when scripture says:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.[6]

We are all familiar with other scripture that speaks of how God changes not.  These are all testimony to our gospel.  Our gospel is not that God knew that man would sin.  Our gospel is that God provided for a sinful man before he was even created, so that sinful man would have a hope of salvation.

This ties directly into the other question.  Why would God create man knowing He was going to sin?

God has done something for sinful man before sinful man was ever created.  As Paul says this act of God’s love towards us is a promise of salvation before the world began.  Paul tells us that God created us that we would do more than seek him, but reach out to Him and find Him.

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.  God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.[7]

But this not the end game to the question why?   Rather it is the means to the reason why.

By God providing for us before the foundation of the world and His planting us here on the earth to reach out to Him and find Him.  It achieves the purpose of why God created man knowing that he would fall into sin.

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.[8]

God started all this because it pleases Him to show the incomparable riches of His grace and kindness to us in Christ who are a fallen creature.  Bottom line, this is why scripture says Christ endured the cross because of the joy set before Him, because He desires to demonstrate His grace and love to us.

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.[9]

To me the question isn’t a tricky one to answer, for God’s word is clear about His understanding, His work, His provision, His motivation and why we should worship such a loving God.

I personally do not agree that God’s whole purpose of creation was to manifest His glory.  I see it rather as a manifestation of His love expressed in His grace.  Just because His glory is manifest in His creation, doesn’t mean it was the purpose.  To me it is like saying the purpose of the race car is to magnify those companies who sponsor the car.  The purpose is not is what we easily see, but what is revealed in the mystery of our gospel.  This being God expressing His love to a sinful mankind through His grace.

Scripture does not say, for God so purposed His glory to be displayed that He sent His son, as it appears you have said.  Maybe I misunderstood.  But I see God sending His Son in the greatest expression of His love towards us in His grace

Am I out in left field on this one Carl?  Well WoundedEgo, am I?  As one who does not know everything and does not have the education you have, it seems as if you two are arguing all around the topic but not discussing the topic.

[1] Revelation 13:8

[2] Titus 1:1-2

[3] Matthew 25:34

[4] Revelation 17:8

[5] Hebrews 4:4

[6] Hebrews 13:8

[7] Acts 17:26-27

[8] Ephesians 2:6-7

[9] Hebrews 12:2

Blinded defense

Many people believe that the events in the book of Revelation are chronological, meaning they happen one right after the other in the order they are presented in the book.  To me it seems as if people have not thought this our very well.  If we take the events of Revelation chronologically it paints a strange picture.

The sixth seal says the sun turns black, the moon to blood and the stars fall like over ripe fruit and then finally the sky is rolled up like a scroll.  Can you imagine having the order of the cosmos being undone and finally being rolled up and removed, no longer to be seen?

If all of this is done at the sixth seal, then can anyone tell me what in the heck is the fourth trumpet all about?  I thought all the cosmos was removed at the 6th seal, yet we have them back again at the fourth trumpet?  Did John forget to record the blowing of the 2nd kazoo that sounded the return of the sun moon and stars? 

If we want to assume that the stars have fallen and the cosmos is rolled up at the sixth seal, this means that the antichrists kingdom will not have the benefit of the sun, moon and stars.  But if we say these are still there then what was the sixth seal all about?

If Revelation is chronological, doesn’t Jesus jump the gun a little?  At the sixth seal it says, “the great day of their wrath has come.”  What in the world is Jesus doing having the great day of His wrath at the sixth seal, when the rest of us are still waiting for the beast to take His kingdom after the trumpets?  Maybe we have it all wrong.  Maybe the beast doesn’t face God’s great day of wrath after all.

I also get a little confused about who is persecuting the Christians if I take Revelation chronologically.  At the 6th seal we have the saints who have come out of the great tribulation.  I have to assume that it includes the ones at the 5th seal asking the Lord how long.  So if the saints have come out of the great tribulation, then who is the Beast persecuting in when he gets his kingdom between the trumpets and the bowls?  His seams to have missed his own tribulation. 

When taking Revelation chronologically I also get the feeling that Jesus has short term memory loss and presents to us a déjà vue. You know that strange funny feeling this has happened before.  We have a great earth quake and the Lord’s coming to do some great hind kicking at the sixth seal.  Yet I see Jesus doing an encore after the mystery of God is complete at the seventh trumpet.  There He has a great earthquake and He takes His power and begins to reign.  Was He joking the first time?  Was it practice?

And what is the big idea of Jesus taking His power and beginning to reign at the seventh trumpet only to give kingship of the earth back to the beast just before the bowls?  I always thought that when He began to reign He would put all of His enemies under His feet.  Not let the beast out.  In fact I always thought that when He comes and takes His authority and begins to reign He defeats the beast.  But how can He do this if the beast chronologically comes after He begins to reign?

Something doesn’t seem right in chronological land.  How is it men can defend this kind of view, by having blinders on?

Mystery of God (Part 8 Rethinking the Revelation timeline)

Before I begin to put down Biblical reasons for believers to rethink the Revelation timeline I would like to give credit to Henry at Spirit of Discernment who has been fighting the good fight in defending our gospel.  Henry has put forth great evidences that Jesus taught His disciples that he would come immediately after the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[1]

We can see His coming will proceed only momentarily the sounding of the trumpet call to gather His bride.  Henry has laid out plain evidence that we will not escape the tribulation.  He asserts that we will be raptured at the sixth seal.

I have been advocating we will be raptured at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet just as scripture teaches.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[2]

Not simply do to the fact that this is the last trumpet of the seven trumpets do I say this is the timing of the rapture.  I say this do to the finished work of our unfulfilled gospel, the mystery of God, which will without delay be accomplished as this last trumpet begins to sound.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.[3]

Please read the “Mystery of God” series of short post to follow the Biblical proof of what the mystery of God is and the timing of the rapture.

Since I have proven conclusively that our rapture completes our gospel as Jesus brings us our salvation, which occurs at the seventh trumpet, is Henry wrong for calling the rapture at the sixth seal?  No he is not, after all we see the changes in the sun and moon at the sixth seal, just as Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31.  We also see the heavens shaken and nations mourn His coming because the great day of wrath has come.

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.  The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.  Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.  They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”[4]

So if Henry is right, that the rapture happens at the sixth seal, how can I be right that the rapture happens at the seventh trumpet? 

The seventh seal begets the seven trumpets.  The seven trumpets are part of the six seals, more specifically the sixth seal.  Only the bowls or wrath stands separate from the seals.  Not only is the seven trumpets birthed out of the seals and reflects the sixth seal.  The description we have of the two witnesses and their ministry also overlaps the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet.  Each overlap reaffirms the stated events with more detail added.  But they are the same events.

Rethinking the Revelation timeline

What we have in the book of Revelation is the testimony of the seals, the trumpets and the two witnesses that we as Christians will go through the tribulation.  The “come up here’ spoken to the two witnesses overlaps the Mystery of God, which overlaps the Lambs return and the saints who were redeemed out of the tribulation.  It is like we are looking at a multi-layered transparency.  If you want you can imagine it like a 3D picture, not a 2D linier picture.

[1]Matthew 24:29-31

[2] 1 Corinthians 15:52

[3] Revelation 10:7

[4] Revelation 6:12-17

The Mystery of God (Part 7 the rapture)

Revelation 10:7 speaks of the mystery of God being finished at the sounding of the last trumpet.  We have been studying scripture and we have seen how it teaches that our gospel is a mystery and our gospel is not fulfilled.  For review let’s look at what Revelation says.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.[1]

Scripture teaches that as the seventh and last trumpet is beginning to sound the mystery of God will be finished.  We have learned that concerning our gospel we will be ruptured at the last trumpet.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[2]

So we see that the mystery of God will be accomplished as the last trumpet sounds.  We see the rapture the hope of Christians taking place at the last trumpet.  We have, not a completely fulfilled gospel being fulfilled completely at the last trumpet.

We shall finally shed this corruptible man and become like Jesus.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.[3]

We shall finally have Jesus bringing us our salvation.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.[4]

All of this and more occurs at the last trumpet, the last trumpet in revelation.  This means our rapture takes place after all the seals and the other six trumpets.  Only the seven bowls of wrath come after our rapture.  This means that Christians are going to go through the great tribulation, but not the wrath of God.  There are a whole lot of people who are expecting to leave this here terrestrial ball before the tribulation even starts.  But if you believe in the mystery we have had passed down to us in the form of our gospel, you can no longer comfort yourselves in such escapism. 

[1] Revelation 10:7

[2] 1 Corinthians 15:52

[3] 1 Corinthians 15:49

[4] Hebrews 9:28

The Mystery of God (Part 6 The gospel the church refuses to believe)

Our gospel has not reached its fulfillment

In the last four parts of The Mystery of God series we have established with evidence upon evidence that our New Testament teaches that our gospel is the Mystery of God spoken of in Revelation chapter 10.  Revelation speaks of a moment in time in our future that without delay our gospel will be finished.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.[1]

Jesus speaking of the last days also makes a very interesting comment pertaining to the accomplishment of something.  He says that when Jerusalem is surrounded by her enemies that all things that are written may be fulfilled.

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.[2]

We have the angel in the book of Revelation and Jesus declaring there is a time when all things written will be accomplished.  If our gospel is this mystery spoken of in Revelation and Jesus mirrors this, then what is to be fulfilled in our gospel?  After all, we are taught that our gospel was finished at the cross.

Please review my post “More than nothing left to do” to review how scripture shows that Jesus fulfilled what He was sent to do and not sent the first time to complete our gospel.

There is evidence upon evidence upon evidence that our gospel is no more finished as there is evidence that we are alive and not with Christ yet.  So lets look at only a small portion of scripture that speaks of the Mystery of God (our gospel) that is yet to be fulfilled, and will be fulfilled when the seventh angel shall begin to sound his trumpet.  Let us look at The Gospel According to the Gospel the gospel the church refuses to believe.

The writer of Hebrews (maybe Apollos) declares that Jesus came the first time to bear our sins.  He then supports what we have learned in this series, that Jesus did not complete our gospel, when he says that Jesus will not come to bear sin again, but to bring salvation.  Scripture shows this mystery of our gospel is not complete.

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.[3]

As much of a scandal it is for the church to see a scripture that teaches we await our salvation with Christ’s return.  Paul tells the church that we are not adopted as sons yet.  Even though we go around and teach we are adopted, Paul lets us know that we will be adopted sons when our bodies are redeemed and this happens at Christ return.  For then we shall be like the man from heaven.  Don’t believe adoption is yet to be, who hopes for what he has?

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.  For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?  But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.[4]

To add scandal upon scandal, Peter too speaks of our salvation as coming in the last days.  He further says our inheritance is kept for us in heaven while we are waiting for the coming of our salvation.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.[5]

So we have three that testify that our gospel is not complete.  But it is not just three but Jesus who said all will be fulfilled in the last days when Jerusalem is surrounded.  The angel who said our gospel mystery will happen as the last trumpet is being sounded.  But more than this we have many upon many scriptures that teach our gospel is not complete, rather it is a hope.  Even our salvation is not ours yet, we have yet to receive it.  This is The Gospel According to the Gospel.  The gospel the church refuses to believe.

You can find proof upon proof from scripture about our unfulfilled gospel at the following places on my blog.  To see more evidence that we have a hope of salvation click Got Salvation?  To better understand this mystery called our gospel feel free to look at my statements of belief called Uncommon Belief.  These scriptures that show our gospel is not fulfilled, will complement those verses that speak of our gospel as a mystery.  Proving over and over again that our gospel is that mystery to be fulfilled at the sounding of the last trumpet.  The scriptural teaching of the mystery of God (our gospel) being fulfilled in the last days further proves the validity of the The Gospel According to the Gospel – the gospel the church refuses to believe.

[1] Revelation 10:7

[2] Luke 21:22

[3] Hebrews 9:28

[4] Romans 8:23-25

[5] 1 Peter 1:3-5

The Mystery of God (Part 5)

In this Mystery of God series we have been demonstrating that the Mystery of God spoken of in Revelation chapter 10 is the fulfillment of our gospel.  It is announced that there will be no more delay and this mystery of God will be finished and this during the sounding of the last trumpet.

But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”[1]

We have learned from our New Testament the following.

  1. This mystery was spoken to the prophets, just like our gospelRev 10:7, Act 10:43, Rom 1:1, Rom 3:21
  2. This mystery was written of by the prophets, just like our gospelRom 16:26
  3. This mystery was ordained before time began, just like our gospel1 Cor 2:7, Rom 16:25
  4. This mystery was hidden in time past, just like our gospelRom 16:25
  5. This mystery was revealed to the apostles, just like our gospelEph 3-5
  6. Paul was commissioned to preach this mystery, just like he was for our gospelCol 1:25, 1 Cor 4:1, Eph 6:20, Col 4:4
  7. Paul was persecuted for this mystery, just as he was for our gospelEph 6:19-20, Col 4:3-4
  8. This mystery was made know to the saints, just like our gospel.  Col 1:26
  9. This mystery was made know to the gentiles, just like our gospelCol 1:27
  10. This mystery involves the hardening of Israel, just like our gospelRom 11-25
  11. The revelation of this mystery was by the command of God, just like our gospelRom 16:26
  12. This mystery is revealed so that all nations may obey God, just like our gospelRom 16:26
  13. The mystery at the last trump will destroy death, just like our gospel1 Cor 15:54
  14. This mystery declares we will be changed imperishable, just like our gospel1 Cor 15:52-53
  15. This mystery will be put into effect at the end, just like our gospelEph 1:9-10
  16. This mystery will take place at the last trump, just like our gospel1 Cor 15:52, Rev 10:7
  17. The fulfillment of this mystery puts all things under Christ, just like our gospelEph 1:10, Rev 11:15

What I have listed above and in the previous post on the Mystery of God is just a starting point of study about what we have in Christ.  We have scripture testifying that the fulfillment of our gospel will be accomplished in the last days.

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.[2]

But is there more to the mystery of our gospel than just waiting for the rapture for us believers?  Is something greater going on, that we have failed to see, in the mystery of our gospel that is yet be finished?  Our New Testament reveals to us this is so. 

Next time we will look at the mystery of God (our gospel) that the church refuses to believe, which is yet to be accomplished on that day.

[1] Revelation 10:7

[2] Eph 1:9-10